Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Silk
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Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Silk » August 7th, 2015, 12:56 am

Nagapon wrote:
nekomimi wrote:
KeksX wrote:I just want to point out, since I think some people might be confused:

I don't complain about the grind. I love the grind. I have countless max level characters in both the original Ragnarok as well as high level characters in Renewal(though I stopped due to the reason I pointed out earlier), I've played every "hardcore korean grind MMO" thats out there. If the combat is good, I grind my brain out.

So thats not at all what I'm disapppointed with. It was the linearity(i.e. limited choice) I felt in the early levels of Tree Of Savior in terms of where, how and with whom I grind, but as others pointed out in this thread and I personally am starting to realize myself, that gets better the higher you go.
i get your point :ok: i hope more variety from the beginning till the end too. I quit renewal RO after i maxed my char cuz I don't want to go the same route again.

If I have to go through the same process in low levels, i hope at least the dev team can make the process shorter :ok: :ok:
By reading this I just realized that RO had something amazing that is very, very uncommon for MMOs, which is the possibility to take different leveling routes (It was like that until Renewal). You had several options of places to grind depending on your class, your equipments and etc, and that adds a lot to the replayability of the game, of course, so leveling other chars doesn't feel as repetitive and boring as doing the exact same route everytime (Wakfu does this and it's horrible, all the sub chars I make lack several stuff because I don't have the patience to go through the same thing over and over everytime I want to test/level another class), as well as giving the player relevant freedom within the game.

Most important: It looks like Tree of Savior is gonna be one of those, so...
About Wakfu: Did you know it, too, used to have absolutely no quests? Actually the devteam had come out and said "We want to make something without quests" back before Wakfu was released. I played a beta of Wakfu so old that the art style wasn't even the same.

It came out, it was Sandbox, lots of really cool things happened, I stopped playing for a while. When I came back it had a tutorial zone and quests. What?

Because I'm watching games with open play styles consistently add less sandboxy features, I think that there's an inherent problem with the model that I don't know. It must be a poor system to monetize or something.
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Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Noctureon » August 7th, 2015, 11:27 am

Silk wrote: About Wakfu: Did you know it, too, used to have absolutely no quests? Actually the devteam had come out and said "We want to make something without quests" back before Wakfu was released. I played a beta of Wakfu so old that the art style wasn't even the same.

It came out, it was Sandbox, lots of really cool things happened, I stopped playing for a while. When I came back it had a tutorial zone and quests. What?

Because I'm watching games with open play styles consistently add less sandboxy features, I think that there's an inherent problem with the model that I don't know. It must be a poor system to monetize or something.
I remember studying this somewhere. Psychology I think.

Given enough freedom, people will get bored and shy away from the activity. Humans, intrinsically, crave direction and purpose. Couple this with -as far as I can tell- majority of people lacking imagination, I'm guessing the turnover rate of completely sandbox games is pretty high.
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Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by KeksX » August 7th, 2015, 12:27 pm

I think the main problem here is purpose. If you have freedom, but nothing feels like it has true consequence, then people will not bother. Themepark games have the purpose all laid out for you, from the beginning till the very end.

A good sandbox has multiple purposes and only shows you what COULD happen if you went in either direction. EVE Online is a great example; the minute you go into the game you see stations and all that. And it tells you "You could have your own!" - you instantly have an incentive to continue and although you have total freedom on how you approach it, you limit yourself somewhat so that you can achieve your desired goal.

However, those things generally tend to be hard, especially since you are competing with others. And difficulty is a huge turnoff for many.
Perfect example is the point someoone brought in earlier about Ragnarok's freedom: People felt lost and "hopeless" because it was difficult to figure out what skills would be best, what spots would be best etc. They either figured it out with friends or googled it - or just never bothered and quit.
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Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Silk » August 7th, 2015, 4:32 pm

I said something in a discussion a long time ago about this, I think it was in the "The spirit of Ragnarok Online" thread in games.

Basically it was that Sanbox lovers in a theme park feel like they're in a maze with arrows in it. Theme park players in a sandbox feel like they're at a party without a host. I understand both feeling, and striking balance is difficult.

Personally I consider an overhaul of the way we do everything necessary: ragnarok wasn't the greatest thing ever but world of Warcraft isn't the only solution, it's just one of the only ones being used.

The space for experimentation is limited because of the expense of putting something online, but we're getting off the subject of possibilities for tree of savior and talking about strait dream MMOs if we go down that path.
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Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by tomwait » August 8th, 2015, 1:27 pm

What happens to your character if you grind up in various parties without doing the quests? usually you get penalised in the end for skipping them.
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Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Immoral » August 8th, 2015, 5:56 pm

RO actually had lots of areas absolutely useless, it was one of the worse balanced games I have ever tried. Exp rates and drops was given randomly to mobs, making people going only to the obviously profitable zones.

Talking about the actual topic, for me linearity can be ok if the path is fun.
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Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Aries » August 12th, 2015, 6:15 am

So many people have been telling them these things but they don't seem to be listening. How many betas has this game had now? Like 4 and they are still heading on the same path.

And for all the people putting in their opinion without having played the game...

TOS has forcefully paced the grind by rewarding you to go backward/stay in the same place in terms of progression and penalize you for trying higher monsters by nerfing your EXP. They don't seem reward skill in fighting harder monsters and just seem to want you to AOE nuke trash all day.

TOS (at least for the 1/8th of the world I played) has a "Super Mario World" map progression path, where you complete one level (by grinding your level up) and then move along the path to the next spot where they have determined you will grind for a while. You don't stray frim the path because like I mentioned above, you will basically get no EXP fro fighting the other monsters.

TOS classes seem to have "baked in" substats determined by level.
It seems like TOS give you so many options to build a unique character... But none of the options appear to be very effective (as far as I've been able to tell) So you could put your stats anywhere, I don't think it will deviate you to much from the archetype.

Over structured "ant colony" map design...
It looks like they have over-developed TOS into the ground.

As far as I can see, TOS will be very generic in terms of how they box you in and guide you where to go. But the question remains. Will we play it? Lol...

Even with all that. I think they will get a lot of ppl to play it, me included. Even if I do play with a salty taste in my mouth, and a...
"let me see if I can make anything decent with this crap you expect me to play as" mentality >_<
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Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Ken928 » August 12th, 2015, 7:20 am

At the start of icbt I was about to quit the game. I only got to play for 1 hour on the first day and I was not impressed. The tutorial I found ok, but it took me a while to get used to the movement. I switched to the mouse and keyboard thinking I could play this just like RO, and it did not work very well for a melee character.

The next day I switched all to keyboard and then started to think of this game as its own, and not another RO. Sure at the start there is only 1 path to go, and the maps are very limited. But listening to the people who have more experience then just the icbt makes me not worried about the future of this game.

People have said that there are better locations to lvl depending on your class and skills. for example flying monsters can not be hit by certain skills, and depending on the size of the monster stabbing/piercing does more damage. Once we lvl up more people will have the freedom to grind it out where they please, and the fact that partying is better than soloing will give people the social aspect they are looking for.

I am not certain about what is planned for this game, I can only imagine that they will eventually make everything bigger and better. As for the exp penalty for fighting monsters stronger then you.... I just don't agree with that either. Maybe its to control the amount of people on certain maps, but who knows. I just hope they have a reason for limiting us.
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