Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

KeksX
Beginner
Posts: 23
Joined: November 2014
Gender: None specified

Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by KeksX » August 4th, 2015, 7:00 pm

Disclaimer: This is merely an opinion!

tl;dr: Maps are just tubes, not a world feeling alive.
Progress is extremely linear and feels like any "cheapo free to play" MMO.
This taints an otherwise great and fun combat/class system.
It certainly feels like a game that carries some of the spirit that Ragnarok Online carried, but at this stage I can't call this "a real Ragnarok 2".

Hey guys,

I've started playing kCBT thanks to a good korean friend. I thought I'd open a topic about probably my biggest problem so far with the game that I had/feared even before I played the game.

In Ragnarok Online, I was mainly a PvE player. Even though I'm mainly a competetive player(Starcraft 1 & 2 to be exact), I enjoyed the vast amount of space in Ragnarok Online as well as the many choices I had. It had limited complexity(grind monsters, get xp and items, use that to grind more monsters) but it offered a lot of depth: There was a lot of choice where I would fight(a big open map with multiple spots to choose from on any lewvel), how I would fight(a massive amount of classes and class combinations in parties), with whom I would fight(flexible party setups) and what I would fight(a huge bestiarity offering the weirdest kind of monsters around).

The instant you fire up Tree Of Savior, you feel that it has some of these aspects. But it also misses some others.
To illustrate that point, let's take a close look at the one of the bigger minimaps you encounter early on in the game as well as Prontera Fields(South):

Image Image
(The ToS map is missing a small piece of the map that leads to the next one)

Everything in that brownish/yellowish color is space you can go to, anything else is just scenery with green icons marking interactable NPCs. Monster hubs are somewhat randomly distributed along the map and not all of the map is "part of the gameplay", sometimes it's just houses with an NPC that talks to you which takes up a good chunk of the map, or a statue.

Most of you probably know the RO map, but on Prontera Fields essentially everything but the water and hills on the side are accessable. The red dots are entrances to other maps with a hidden area in the bottom left(very hidden, super serious secret spot.).
It's up to you where you go and what you do next, most of the time you would just go there to get your first few levels.
You could also try exploring in a party and go into the desert, finding more difficult monsters that give more XP - but are certainly doable for a party. Or you could go to Geffen or any other cities and try the spots there. It was up to you, your progress was completely controlled by you and you only.

It also gave every map a sense of liveliness(is that a word?) and to this day I haven't seen such iconic maps as in Ragnarok Online. This might be nostalgia speaking, but I've had my share bit of rants about the RO as well so I like to think I'm as objective as I can be. The fact that you sometimes just had these massive amounts of monsters on certain maps, completely dominating them, also added a lot to that.

On the Tree of Savior map you see NPCs, some of them just talk to you, some of them give you quests. As you would have guessed, it is essentially just "start in the left, follow the map to the next NPC, talk to him, do his quest, go to next part of the map. If map is done, go to next map.". You can certainly advance by grinding, but if you do that you don't really have a choice either. Just follow the tube, kill the monsters at the places where they are always to be found, and continue to the next map.

You certainly have the options to just grind it out like in the classic RO, but it's just going further down the tube. It'd be stupid to leave out the quests since they give extra XP(and hey you were gonna kill those guys anyway), so in the end all you do is go from map to map and do as the game tells you to do so.
Level progression of maps is also completely linear, you just go to the starting city and work your way from there.

I could also talk about the fact that because you can teleport anywhere, including into the middle of the wilderness, you lose all sense of "being out there". There's a lot of these "smaller" things that I could complain about but I think this post should get my point across.

Personally, this really is a huge negative point on an otherwise great combat and class system and a couple of other great positives of the game.
It feels like they tried to be like Ragnarok Online, but then someone from Nexon came and said "Nono, it's an MMO. Put quests in it and shit like that. Oh and those big-ass maps? Make them smaller, so we can have more of them.".
It certainly feels like a game that carries some of the spirit that Ragnarok Online carried, but at this stage I can't call this "a real Ragnarok 2".

I would love to hear your guys' opinions on this, even if you haven't played ToS yet.
Did you feel that way in Ragnarok at all? Is this even important to you? Am I being too harsh on the game?

I'm especially interested in whether or not maps get bigger and more open in the later stages of the game, so far I've only seem maps up to 120(and only leveled on them until 60, but I'm looking to level more in the beta and see for myself).
Shake
Newcomer
Posts: 8
Joined: August 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Shake » August 4th, 2015, 7:16 pm

I agree with you. I've been playing KCBT this week and the game does feel really linear both in terms of progression and map design. The maps feel super linear. Every map feels like it's just large circular areas connected by narrow pathways as you can see in the map you linked. This is pertty much consistent through every zone I've been in (currently level 77) Exploration doesn't feel fun or interesting, and the world certainly doesn't feel open or alive to me. I didn't play a lot of ragnarok online but I do remember zones feeling way more open. As you can see from looking at ToS maps, zones just feel like a series of "mini zones" linked together by little paths. It doesn't feel like an open living world like most MMOs do.

I think they just made too many zones and it really hurts the game. I would much rather have one large zone that encompasses maybe 10 levels of content and really feels like a big living area that I can explore. In TOS each zone is really only meant for 1-2 levels of content and you generally progress through them very quickly.
User avatar
nekomimi
Beginner
Posts: 19
Joined: July 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by nekomimi » August 4th, 2015, 8:07 pm

I don't know when have you been playing RO but I need to tell you that things sometimes seem better in memory.
I'm a recent iRO player and I have enjoyed it very much. But I don't think the map design in RO is anything good now. Most RO maps are left unvisted, and I think you might have the frustrating moment in RO that you need to travel to Orc dungeon by walking through many maps. Also, beginners feel lost since there's no route for them to follow.

I haven't played this game, but I think it's good to have quest alongside with grinding. Maybe it's good to have a bit larger map, but since this is the lower level map, i think its fine to provide more guidance to beginners. It can be more open world for higher level players though. But I heard that people do grinding more at higher level in TOS. So it might be actually good?

plus, i suggest you to post this feedback to tos official forum too. so the staff will know more about player's opnion :no1:
Last edited by nekomimi on August 4th, 2015, 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Courtis
Donator
Posts: 66
Joined: July 2015
Guild: Majestic
Location: Germany
Gender: None specified
Contact:

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Courtis » August 4th, 2015, 8:13 pm

I agree, that this ia a huge letdown. Some of the most memorable aspects of RO was for example that you could decide where to go to progress and that there have even been zones that almost nobody went to except for somewhat odd reasons.

I have leveled several Hunters to 99 (don't ask me why, I simply love the class) and the freedom where to level (Mandragora, Flora, Clocks, Stings, TI, Dark Frames, Greatest Generals, Niffl, and so on) was an intensely good feeling.

But since no other major Game since RO has been able to pull such a map system off, I kind of expected this. Also the system that you have to grind low level monsters in order to get a specific item or card is unique to RO and I think we sadly won't see such things in ToS.

But on the bright side, I don't think it is time to judge the game just yet. We are in closed beta status and from what I have seen, IMC really pays attention to what the community says. We will see what the future brings
KeksX
Beginner
Posts: 23
Joined: November 2014
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by KeksX » August 4th, 2015, 8:53 pm

nekomimi wrote:I don't know when have you been playing RO but I need to tell you that things sometimes seem better in memory.
I'm a recent iRO player and I have enjoyed it very much. But I don't think the map design in RO is anything good now. Most RO maps are left unvisted, and I think you might have the frustrating moment in RO that you need to travel to Orc dungeon by walking through many maps. Also, beginners feel lost since there's no route for them to follow.
When you played iRO recently you probably played Renewal, which switched up a lot of those things. They pretty much added linear progress which is a huge reason why many people dislike Renewal(alongside other things in combat/classes).
In the older version you had a lot of variety in maps, even when not unlimited, and basic guidance/teleports to get you around.
I haven't played this game, but I think it's good to have quest alongside with grinding. Maybe it's good to have a bit larger map, but since this is the lower level map, i think its fine to provide more guidance to beginners. It can be more open world for higher level players though. But I heard that people do grinding more at higher level in TOS. So it might be actually good?
I generally agree about quests. It's not bad to have them, especially if think about RO as an example again. It had gorgeous quests with sometimes really deep stories that were fun and interesting to complete as a side thing(and sometimes easy XP).

ToS quests are nothing more than an added text field to the grind though and generally only seem to take you away from the grind to make it look like you're doing something else. While in reality, you are just reading meaningless text and then continue to grind.
There's some kind of story that is actually a little interesting, but it feels rushed and not really put together atm.

I also really hope that in the higher levels this changes a lot, but I don't think map size will change a ton. I went to the higher zones that pretty much all looked like that.

Posting on the official forums is probably a little bit too early, since they might have something else in store to fix those. I mean RO in it's early stages had Prontera and a few maps surrounding it, so hey maybe there are some drastic additions coming up. (Also the official forums are pretty bad to use)

If I were to point out how to fix this, it would essentially be similar to what Shake said. Make levels bigger and "last longer" - 10 levels / map, a bit of a theme for each and then have 50 instead of 100(arbitrary numbers).
User avatar
Fayte
Beginner
Posts: 24
Joined: September 2014
Guild: Aistra
Timezone: EST
Location: New York City
Favorite Class: Templar
Server: Klaipeda
Team Name: PGN
Gender: None specified
Contact:

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Fayte » August 4th, 2015, 9:40 pm

I've been playing KCBT too, leveling 4 different characters past 70. I don't understand this linearity.

What I do agree with is that maps have a corridor style to them, and tbh it really works for the game.

But where is the linearity? How much of the game have you played?

A lot of the maps connect in weird ways, some aren't even mapped on your map when you press M and lead to areas with much stronger enemies then there should be (i.e crystal mines floor 3 can lead to a level 120 zone from a level 20 zone).

You can do the main quest, and even the main quest skips over areas at points, letting you decide what you want to do on your way there.

You can choose to find free quests, and do them in the area, like a traditional MMO.

At the same time, you can skip them entirely, and go to many different area's to level up. For example, my friend is an archer and does more damage to flying mobs. At level 108 he did much better grinding in one map that had flying maps, while I had to explore and find a map with more clumped up mobs to AoE, or find mobs that took more damage to my Zaibas.

That is not linearity. In fact if you really want to start comparing it to RO, that is how RO worked. You found places that worked for you, and it was rarely the same between classes.

Heck even the mobs in ToS are more unique then the traditional mobs you'll find in linear games. One mob reversi'd my Zaibas killing me. Some have fire pillar. One strong mob has death verdict and can kill players with it. One mob cast's meltsis on it's allied mobs to increase their buffs. I know it's a little topic, but it really adds to the gameplay.

Also it is not stupid to leave out the free quests. You can do 0 free quests and it can be much faster just grinding if you know where to go for your class.
The later free quests are pretty interesting. Some have funny and unique stories to them, like the tale of the gambler.

There are also secret object quests. (i.e clicking the treasure box to the right of Silualia Miners Village triggers a unique Vube boss, otherwise unknown if following quests).

I think you have not experienced enough of the KCBT, or it will be easier to understand all this in iCBT.
Image
User avatar
nekomimi
Beginner
Posts: 19
Joined: July 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by nekomimi » August 4th, 2015, 9:49 pm

KeksX wrote: When you played iRO recently you probably played Renewal, which switched up a lot of those things. They pretty much added linear progress which is a huge reason why many people dislike Renewal(alongside other things in combat/classes).
In the older version you had a lot of variety in maps, even when not unlimited, and basic guidance/teleports to get you around.
yea i played renewal, but i also played classic before.
My opinion is that the old RO mode is not favored by most MMO players nowadays. Although many people talked about missing the old play style, chatting and grinding with friends in a open field, most people don't have the time to do that now. People want to level up quickly and enjoy end game content soon.

But true, after hearing how the TOS map and quest work, I prefer a larger map to explore freely and a main quest with more stories involved.

ps. i think TOS design is what i need. i need a goal for me to continue a game, so the main quest is good for me.

:ok: :ok: :ok:
KeksX
Beginner
Posts: 23
Joined: November 2014
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by KeksX » August 4th, 2015, 10:52 pm

@Fayte:

The linearity stems from the fact that you pretty much go the same route with every class and every "playthrough". You cannot change how or where you progress and it's guided from the game. As I wrote in my post so far I'm just 60 so far but have explored the map a bit more than that and try to get to 100 and see that for myself(since I only now have time to really play it a bit more).

I would be interested in the example of you and your archer friend. What maps did you end up grinding on and where did you go after you didn't get enough XP anymore? Did you go to completely different places? And why wouldn't you play together?

If it ends up just being like that in the early stages and much better in the later ones, I'm relieved. But then I don't understand why they don't have that from the get-go. It's pretty off-putting to be honest.
I know it's a little topic, but it really adds to the gameplay.
I completely agree though, the combat system and monster design is superb. Thats not what I'm complaining about!
Also it is not stupid to leave out the free quests. You can do 0 free quests and it can be much faster just grinding if you know where to go for your class.
I mean if you're killing the same mobs anyway, why not do the quests? Take Tenet Chapel, it's a pretty great grinding spot, so you end up doing the quests for more XP. Once you're done with the quest, you're pretty much outleveling the zone already.
There are also secret object quests. (i.e clicking the treasure box to the right of Silualia Miners Village triggers a unique Vube boss, otherwise unknown if following quests).
I think you're missing the main critique point of mine.

I'm talking about the overall design of the maps itself. They are "corridor style", which in my eyes is just terrible. They don't feel like a world but like a slide in the waterpark. That is actually a problem of countless MMOs, but it seems especially apparent in here.

But if you say that it gets better with higher levels, I'm eager to go level up a bit more and check it out myself.
My opinion is that the old RO mode is not favored by most MMO players nowadays. Although many people talked about missing the old play style, chatting and grinding with friends in a open field, most people don't have the time to do that now. People want to level up quickly and enjoy end game content soon.
Well I mean ToS seems to do exactly that, though, which is great imho :P. Lots of grinding and it seems that the maxlvl is quite "hard" to reach.
User avatar
Ezaky
Newcomer
Posts: 6
Joined: July 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Ezaky » August 4th, 2015, 11:48 pm

nekomimi wrote:
KeksX wrote: When you played iRO recently you probably played Renewal, which switched up a lot of those things. They pretty much added linear progress which is a huge reason why many people dislike Renewal(alongside other things in combat/classes).
In the older version you had a lot of variety in maps, even when not unlimited, and basic guidance/teleports to get you around.
yea i played renewal, but i also played classic before.
My opinion is that the old RO mode is not favored by most MMO players nowadays. Although many people talked about missing the old play style, chatting and grinding with friends in a open field, most people don't have the time to do that now. People want to level up quickly and enjoy end game content soon.

But true, after hearing how the TOS map and quest work, I prefer a larger map to explore freely and a main quest with more stories involved.

ps. i think TOS design is what i need. i need a goal for me to continue a game, so the main quest is good for me.

:ok: :ok: :ok:
Have you even been playing any MMOs at all? Most big new MMOs went this way and failed hard, most not delivering the so hyped END GAME CONTENT, some not even having end-game content at all, which in these cases, would you rather reach no end-game content in 1 week or 1 month(playing the same amount of time).

Some examples for citation:
WildStar (had problems with endgame progression, players got stuck and couldn't beat anything, pretty sure got fixed later on)
Guild Wars 2 (had virtually no endgame outside of fractals and legendary gear, this is sorta fixed by the living story, but not really)
SWTOR (had problems with endgame, just poorly executed)
Neverwinter (has problems with endgame where you need to have really good gear just to get into any group/guild to do stuff)
ArcheAge (RNG endgame, even crafting is RNG, favoring people with money)

Just a few because I want to get my point across. This is not the way to make a GOOD MMO, this is a way to make a bad game, that hey, maybe a lot of people will play for a while, but then they will realize the game is poor, endgame is bad and will stop playing. WildStar and SWTOR went F2P because of stuff like this, the others have the F2P/B2P "advantage", but still lost playerbase, no doubt.

Tree of Savior can go the grindy way if it's done right, because it is FREE TO PLAY, you don't have to pay every month or feel like your money was spent wisely, you can just play whenever you want, until the servers disappear. The "system" you mentioned is failed and outdated, and the results are there for people to see. You fail when you imply only the endgame has to be the good or great part of a MMO, this mindset of "get max level as fast as possible to get to the good stuff cuz everything else is just a placeholder and doesn't matter" is just stupid. The whole game is the good stuff, the whole game can be the good stuff, people need to stop with this.
Silk
Apprentice
Posts: 71
Joined: July 2014
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Silk » August 5th, 2015, 12:33 am

After the game opens at 10 tonight I'm most certainly going to make some kind of post after playing a bit on the main forum, for now though this is a great place to get into it.

TREE OF SAVIOR AND THE AGE OLD MMO DISCUSSION: SANDBOX VERSUS THEME PARK

For millennia man has suffered this one, immortal argument, neither side faltering, both sides correct but forever fighting! Which is more important, to have an open world, no direction Sandbox experience in an online game, or a quest to quest journey through a storyline?!

On the side of Sandbox
Players are given more space to be creative and have fun in the ways they want when they are given freedom and access to multiple environments. Quests and stories will take you everywhere in the game so it fails to incentivize exploration.

On the side of Theme Park
Players are given guidance and grounding. They are taken into an experience one step at a time and it's not confusing or scary. Most people don't have time to figure out so many different path ways and options, simplifying the parts that should be simple, like where to go and how to progress, takes some of the pressure, learning curve, and time off of getting into a game.

On the side of Silk (Me.)
On the subject of suspension of disblief: Sandbox is the only acceptable thing. I hate doing quests in MMOs because the stories usually dampen the experience, we accept a lot about MMO stories that I don't think we should. We expect and accept poor presentation (Save these 10 NPCs who have no character and will all say the same couple phrases), slow, terrible start ups (Spend your first 30 levels getting the ingredients to make me a sandwich, then maybe I'll let you kill someone that matters.) and disjointed or illogical scenerios (You are the chosen hero amongst these thousands of people doing the same quest-- you are a mercenary even though you are a support only healer.) Plus it's just not conductive to my social semi-roleplay play style. When I'm trying to meet people and get into the idea that I'm playing with others in a thriving world that was made for many, not crafted just for me, experiencing a linear world made just for me is kind of a dent in that whole reality. In theory, something like Sword Art Online would be acceptable, where the lore of "A giant dungeon was made just to be conquered" explains the linearity just fine, but being in a near-apocolypse open landscape of multiple factions and obstacles that coincidentally happen to exist in a world that is a straight line organized by the difficulty of foe, it's a little hard for me to get into.

On the subject of fun: The most important thing, though, is that everyone is having fun and that the features coalesce into an experience I'm interested in. The important things to me in Tree of Savior are that I am in a good environment to socialize, which I may be, I don't know yet. That I am able to use my creativity to make a character that fits my personality and play style, that's true of Tree of Savior. And that the gameplay allows me to play to my chosen role and be useful to my team by doing so, we'll see.

There's more I probably want from the game that I can't know til I play, but ToS has a lot I want already. In the spirit of not letting perfect be the enemy of good, I'm willing to sacrifice my beloved openness as I watch how ToS does in achieving some of my other wishes for games, like real and meaningful character variety and progression.

I have a lot more to say on both sides of the argument, but I think I've said enough so far, I'll come back and check so please make some arguments for or against me :ok:
Last edited by Silk on August 5th, 2015, 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
nekomimi
Beginner
Posts: 19
Joined: July 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by nekomimi » August 5th, 2015, 12:48 am

Ezaky wrote:
Have you even been playing any MMOs at all? Most big new MMOs went this way and failed hard, most not delivering the so hyped END GAME CONTENT, some not even having end-game content at all, which in these cases, would you rather reach no end-game content in 1 week or 1 month(playing the same amount of time).

Some examples for citation:
WildStar (had problems with endgame progression, players got stuck and couldn't beat anything, pretty sure got fixed later on)
Guild Wars 2 (had virtually no endgame outside of fractals and legendary gear, this is sorta fixed by the living story, but not really)
SWTOR (had problems with endgame, just poorly executed)
Neverwinter (has problems with endgame where you need to have really good gear just to get into any group/guild to do stuff)
ArcheAge (RNG endgame, even crafting is RNG, favoring people with money)

Just a few because I want to get my point across. This is not the way to make a GOOD MMO, this is a way to make a bad game, that hey, maybe a lot of people will play for a while, but then they will realize the game is poor, endgame is bad and will stop playing. WildStar and SWTOR went F2P because of stuff like this, the others have the F2P/B2P "advantage", but still lost playerbase, no doubt.

Tree of Savior can go the grindy way if it's done right, because it is FREE TO PLAY, you don't have to pay every month or feel like your money was spent wisely, you can just play whenever you want, until the servers disappear. The "system" you mentioned is failed and outdated, and the results are there for people to see. You fail when you imply only the endgame has to be the good or great part of a MMO, this mindset of "get max level as fast as possible to get to the good stuff cuz everything else is just a placeholder and doesn't matter" is just stupid. The whole game is the good stuff, the whole game can be the good stuff, people need to stop with this.
sorry if i made my point confusing. i would love to see a MMO both fun to grind/level and also have interesting end game components. I think TOS is kinda satisfying in both grind and level.
The reason that I said 'many people want to level fast and enjoy end game' is that tedious and repetitive grinding is no longer good for a MMO game now. I don't suggest to get rid of grinding or speed up the leveling process too much, but they should be designed to be enjoyable and less repetitive and time consuming. I think both classic and renewal RO did a bad job in this now, largely due to the shrinkage of population.
User avatar
Ezaky
Newcomer
Posts: 6
Joined: July 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Ezaky » August 5th, 2015, 1:30 am

Silk wrote:After the game opens at 10 tonight I'm most certainly going to make some kind of post after playing a bit on the main forum, for now though this is a great place to get into it.

TREE OF SAVIOR AND THE AGE OLD MMO DISCUSSION: SANDBOX VERSUS THEME PARK

For millennia man has suffered this one, immortal argument, neither side faltering, both sides correct but forever fighting! Which is more important, to have an open world, no direction Sandbox experience in an online game, or a quest to quest journey through a storyline?!

On the side of Sandbox
Players are given more space to be creative and have fun in the ways they want when they are given freedom and access to multiple environments. Quests and stories will take you everywhere in the game so it fails to incentivize exploration.

On the side of Theme Park
Players are given guidance and grounding. They are taken into an experience one step at a time and it's not confusing or scary. Most people don't have time to figure out so many different path ways and options, simplifying the parts that should be simple, like where to go and how to progress, takes some of the pressure, learning curve, and time off of getting into a game.

On the side of Silk (Me.)
On the subject of suspension of disblief: Sandbox is the only acceptable thing. I hate doing quests in MMOs because the stories usually dampen the experience, we accept a lot about MMO stories that I don't think we should. We expect and accept poor presentation (Save these 10 NPCs who have no character and will all say the same couple phrases), slow, terrible start ups (Spend your first 30 levels getting the ingredients to make me a sandwich, then maybe I'll let you kill someone that matters.) and disjointed or illogical scenerios (You are the chosen hero amongst these thousands of people doing the same quest-- you are a mercenary even though you are a support only healer.) Plus it's just not conductive to my social semi-roleplay play style. When I'm trying to meet people and get into the idea that I'm playing with others in a thriving world that was made for many, not crafted just for me, experiencing a linear world made just for me is kind of a dent in that whole reality. In theory, something like Sword Art Online would be acceptable, where the lore of "A giant dungeon was made just to be conquered" explains the linearity just fine, but being in a near-apocolypse open landscape of multiple factions and obstacles that coincidentally happen to exist in a world that is a straight line organized by the difficulty of foe, it's a little hard for me to get into.

On the subject of fun: The most important thing, though, is that everyone is having fun and that the features coalesce into an experience I'm interested in. The important things to me in Tree of Savior are that I am in a good environment to socialize, which I may be, I don't know yet. That I am able to use my creativity to make a character that fits my personality and play style, that's true of Tree of Savior. And that the gameplay allows me to play to my chosen role and be useful to my team by doing so, we'll see.

There's more I probably want from the game that I can't know til I play, but ToS has a lot I want already. In the spirit of not letting perfect be the enemy of good, I'm willing to sacrifice my beloved openness as I watch how ToS does in achieving some of my other wishes for games, like real and meaningful character variety and progression.

I have a lot more to say on both sides of the argument, but I think I've said enough so far, I'll come back and check so please make some arguments for or against me :D
This is all heavily subjective in my opinion but I'll argue for the sake of arguing(and we all improve doing it if we keep our minds open!).

"On the side of sandbox":
Normally you have access to every area, you can't do well in all of them, but you have access to all of them. I think you made a mistake here when you said "quests and stories will take you everywhere in the game, so it fails to incentivize exploration", how does a game that makes me see a lot of places, and I can do it whenever I want "fails to incentivize exploration"? I would think it does the opposite, it incentivizes exploration, because you're not stuck to something from the start.

"On the side of theme park":
The way you describe this makes it seem like all open world MMOs are scary and confusing, which is silly. What you say here also makes me think of "hand holding", you know? When a game guides me through every single step, not giving me any significant form of control over where to go, what to do, etc. Also, making an argument based on most people, when it's about gaming, just doesn't work. Dwarf Fortress is a hard game, steep learning curve and what not, still, it works, and people play it. It really gives you a sense of progress when you start to understand it, when you can do stuff in it, that you put time into it and you achieved something. So is Dota 2, an amazingly popular game.

(I'm not sure if you tried to argue for the two sides, or just defined the two sides, but I'll guess you tried to argue for it, since it generates discussion)

"On the side of Silk":
I 100% agree. One thing that I always tought was amazing thing about Ragnarok Online, for an example, is that, there wasn't any of this. Maybe one day you entered a bar in Morrocc and a questline started, you know, it was something on that world, you weren't a chosen hero or anything like that, you were just a guy trying to get a drink when suddenly shit happens, and I like that a lot more than what we have these days. Some quests could be a little cryptic, but still, I would take a open-world where I feel like I'm just one more guy, and maybe I help some NPCs sometimes, than a hero, along with 1 million other heroes, all doing the same fucking thing, to get to the same place.

"On the subject of fun":
Yes, and I think Tree of Savior will nail all those things, and that is ultimately what matters, having fun playing the game, even if it has some flaws, because it doesn't seem that the open-world aspect will change, so if we can leave at that and have other things be amazing, then so be it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
nekomimi wrote: sorry if i made my point confusing. i would love to see a MMO both fun to grind/level and also have interesting end game components. I think TOS is kinda satisfying in both grind and level.
The reason that I said 'many people want to level fast and enjoy end game' is that tedious and repetitive grinding is no longer good for a MMO game now. I don't suggest to get rid of grinding or speed up the leveling process too much, but they should be designed to be enjoyable and less repetitive and time consuming. I think both classic and renewal RO did a bad job in this now, largely due to the shrinkage of population.
Tedious and repetitive grinding were only acceptable because it was simply all we had, I didn't say it was a good thing or that players need to learn to accept it. As I said, grindy can work if it is well done, which is basically what you're saying, so I agree. I'm saying that a game where you feel true sense of progress with your choices and actions is a lot better than just playing something to, in the end, get to an arbitrary place where "the real game starts". While I said people should stop with this mindset, I don't mind people having it, as long as all the damn MMOs stop siding with this, resulting in a lot of games that could be amazing, but are just poor and lack depth.
User avatar
Nagapon
Newcomer
Posts: 3
Joined: August 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Nagapon » August 5th, 2015, 12:09 pm

I think this image resumes it pretty well.

Image
Silk
Apprentice
Posts: 71
Joined: July 2014
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Silk » August 6th, 2015, 7:12 pm

Feeling better after playin, but it took two days. And that's bad. I'm glad I found the fun, but it came via a grind. I think what's really happening is that I'm learning to enjoy a more generic mmo experience, but there are reasons ToS allows me to do that which I'll go into here.

ToS has a questline, yes. At first I hated that, I felt like I was taking the same beaten roads as everyone else and if I wanted to get to a decent level with a fun party, I would have to do the same or everyone would put level me. ToS falsified this fear in a couple ways.

THE GOOD STUFF

Everyone needs a party
In ToS, everyone needs a party. The bosses are too hard to take care of alone, either you're going to die or your going to spend so much time you'd be better off grinding. Plus, partying teleports characters in the same map to any boss that anyone in the party activates. Bosses are instances that give decent exp so they're fun and worth fighting again, plus it's an mmo so it's nice to help somebody out.

The Meta is there to back up the experience
Problem A with modern MMOs is the lack of a meta. You can't say much for meta and character differentiation when the strait up is no character differentiation as is the case for something like Tera online (which I constantly rag on.) ToS so far looks like it's gonna have the depth and moxy to back up its gameplay with a deep class system so each player can show their creativity.

MY experience and how I came to these conclusions
So I'm in ToS having a terrible time feeling hum drum grinding, feeling the way I always do when I'm grinding in a modern mmo: the game wasn't really made for this and I'm just trying to make it to the next quest. Plus ikna cleric so this is dumb.

Then I learned about over killing. A highlander with a skill that obliterated enemies said "I found out how to farm as a swordsman" and there you had it. My hum drum grind, an hour to a level, became 30 minutes to the next level up. I was grabbing them and he was. Killing them in a good old fashioned magma dungeon, I've dungeon way. To say the least, it was a nice change of pace and it felt great. I taught a Mage with earthquake about over killing and we tried that, I got in parties of five and murdered everything-- that was cool. there was this change where I realized that because there are so many different classes there's going to be a million party set ups and ways to do what's im doing right now, I found a tanking swordsman who started grabbing monsters with a provoke skill and then blocking, I'd safety wall him and out Mage would destroy everything. In short, the grind was there and I felt like the game was embracing it.

Shortly, I grinded, and I had fun and felt unique. You might say "a grind is a grind is a grind, just a result of not enough quests." But I dunno. I don't know what the developers intent was, but I know I was having fun. More on why it's fun when I can sit down and thick about it for longer. (On a cellphone right now)

THE NOT SO GOOD
The beginning made me think I wouldn't be able to continue same old same old tutorials and nonsense. Man was I bored. I think if you're going to shove people through a place so boring where they're also learning the game, you should instead put them in a burning building or the dream of the goddess or something. This was just too standard for me, but also if I had not seen so much of outage of the game I might've been more inclined to enjoy the scenery... Still, I didn't. I didn't actually really love any scenery until I got to the gale plateau area.

The exp cap
You don't get exp from higher level monsters. Why? If I want to assemble the most awesome party of all time, skip some of your game and beat a field boss two zone above us, we should be rewarded atleast greater than if we did nothing. I would prefer that it worked like this: character level is taken into account during damage equations + enemies restore health little by little and so cannot be killed by players more than, say, 25 levels below them until end game. instead you're making it so that if I'm a level 25 with a level 32 in the party, one of us has I take a hard hit with our exp being too far below or to high, when what should be happening is the level 25 is rewarded-- not punished, for trying out a higher zone. Or the level 32 is able to kill with improved enough speed for the lower zone to be adequate, either way, exp should not force theme to separate.

ADDITIONAL
In support of grinding
I know a lot of people can't stand the grind, I even had a party member run off to do meaningless tasks around the world because she didn't want to grind to get to her, which I understand. I'm definitely usually in the same place but I want to really push so I can tell people who didn't get into Beta more about the game.
In opposition to the grind haters who say grindng is objectvely not fun, I say my reasons for enjoying it are simple. I like being doing an activity that is a test of my efficiency as a build or in a party. More so, I like playing with people in a more idle envronment, chatting and chilling and meeting helpng passerbys with various things. I think questing doesn't always lend itself well to a more casual feeling, even though grinding is considered the hard core thing.
Last edited by Silk on August 6th, 2015, 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
nekomimi
Beginner
Posts: 19
Joined: July 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by nekomimi » August 6th, 2015, 8:15 pm

people are complaining about the grind.
see, as i said, most people like fast leveling to the end soon :gg:
i think the leveling rate is just the same and renewal RO though (but the max level is different)
it took me 5 months to max my char to 175 with casual playing in RO which i think its pretty OK
but most tos people seem not very satisfied with this rate :hmm:
User avatar
Ezaky
Newcomer
Posts: 6
Joined: July 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Ezaky » August 6th, 2015, 9:16 pm

Silk wrote: ADDITIONAL
In support of grinding
I know a lot of people can't stand the grind, I even had a party member run off to do meaningless tasks around the world because she didn't want to grind to get to her, which I understand. I'm definitely usually in the same place but I want to really push so I can tell people who didn't get into Beta more about the game.
In opposition to the grind haters who say grindng is objectvely not fun, I say my reasons for enjoying it are simple. I like being doing an activity that is a test of my efficiency as a build or in a party. More so, I like playing with people in a more idle envronment, chatting and chilling and meeting helpng passerbys with various things. I think questing doesn't always lend itself well to a more casual feeling, even though grinding is considered the hard core thing.
You made some good points but what grabs my attention is this. Firstly, I loved helping people in MMOs, and these days I don't feel that is as prominent as before, it may be because of the access to information, but I feel the cryptic nature of old MMOs helped this too. On another point, those days of 3 hours of "mindless" grinding, chatting with the guild, telling jokes, messing with each other, doing random things like trying to mob stuff to a lower level guy, or just following someone for the fun of it, weren't really "mindless" grinding, you know? And that's a good point FOR grinding, and I really do agree with your statement about the "questy" side of MMOs or "questy" MMOs. Of course you can do all of the stuff I said outside of grinding, but when you're doing something basically on zombie mode, you gotta find something to keep you from falling asleep/getting bored, and that's where you force social interactions, amongst other things like optiziming your grind, finding better places, new ways to kill mobs, new party setups, like you mentioned.

nekomimi wrote:people are complaining about the grind.
see, as i said, most people like fast leveling to the end soon :gg:
i think the leveling rate is just the same and renewal RO though (but the max level is different)
it took me 5 months to max my char to 175 with casual playing in RO which i think its pretty OK
but most tos people seem not very satisfied with this rate :hmm:
IMC still might be experimenting with the rates, since they lowered from the kCBT3 and this is the first iCBT, rates could change in future CBTs/OBT, so I think we still have a while to see how grindy the game will truly be. I can't say how I feel about these rates because I'm not playing, but honestly, doesn't seem bad at all.
Silk
Apprentice
Posts: 71
Joined: July 2014
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Silk » August 6th, 2015, 9:26 pm

Ezaky wrote:
Silk wrote: ADDITIONAL
In support of grinding
I know a lot of people can't stand the grind, I even had a party member run off to do meaningless tasks around the world because she didn't want to grind to get to her, which I understand. I'm definitely usually in the same place but I want to really push so I can tell people who didn't get into Beta more about the game.
In opposition to the grind haters who say grindng is objectvely not fun, I say my reasons for enjoying it are simple. I like being doing an activity that is a test of my efficiency as a build or in a party. More so, I like playing with people in a more idle envronment, chatting and chilling and meeting helpng passerbys with various things. I think questing doesn't always lend itself well to a more casual feeling, even though grinding is considered the hard core thing.
You made some good points but what grabs my attention is this. Firstly, I loved helping people in MMOs, and these days I don't feel that is as prominent as before, it may be because of the access to information, but I feel the cryptic nature of old MMOs helped this too. On another point, those days of 3 hours of "mindless" grinding, chatting with the guild, telling jokes, messing with each other, doing random things like trying to mob stuff to a lower level guy, or just following someone for the fun of it, weren't really "mindless" grinding, you know? And that's a good point FOR grinding, and I really do agree with your statement about the "questy" side of MMOs or "questy" MMOs. Of course you can do all of the stuff I said outside of grinding, but when you're doing something basically on zombie mode, you gotta find something to keep you from falling asleep/getting bored, and that's where you force social interactions, amongst other things like optiziming your grind, finding better places, new ways to kill mobs, new party setups, like you mentioned.

nekomimi wrote:people are complaining about the grind.
see, as i said, most people like fast leveling to the end soon :gg:
i think the leveling rate is just the same and renewal RO though (but the max level is different)
it took me 5 months to max my char to 175 with casual playing in RO which i think its pretty OK
but most tos people seem not very satisfied with this rate :hmm:
IMC still might be experimenting with the rates, since they lowered from the kCBT3 and this is the first iCBT, rates could change in future CBTs/OBT, so I think we still have a while to see how grindy the game will truly be. I can't say how I feel about these rates because I'm not playing, but honestly, doesn't seem bad at all.
It's bad alone, it's not as horrid together, and it's actually kinda manageable if you know what you're doing. It turns out. Actually kind of manageable being 45 minutes for a level just below the 30s.

But you do have to play where the game tells you to, because they are being cruel with that exp drop off. If a zone if 5 levels above you, you're not making anything. Go higher than that and your damage is reduced to nil and you get 0 exp for kills.
KeksX
Beginner
Posts: 23
Joined: November 2014
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by KeksX » August 6th, 2015, 9:59 pm

I just want to point out, since I think some people might be confused:

I don't complain about the grind. I love the grind. I have countless max level characters in both the original Ragnarok as well as high level characters in Renewal(though I stopped due to the reason I pointed out earlier), I've played every "hardcore korean grind MMO" thats out there. If the combat is good, I grind my brain out.

So thats not at all what I'm disapppointed with. It was the linearity(i.e. limited choice) I felt in the early levels of Tree Of Savior in terms of where, how and with whom I grind, but as others pointed out in this thread and I personally am starting to realize myself, that gets better the higher you go.
User avatar
nekomimi
Beginner
Posts: 19
Joined: July 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by nekomimi » August 6th, 2015, 11:39 pm

KeksX wrote:I just want to point out, since I think some people might be confused:

I don't complain about the grind. I love the grind. I have countless max level characters in both the original Ragnarok as well as high level characters in Renewal(though I stopped due to the reason I pointed out earlier), I've played every "hardcore korean grind MMO" thats out there. If the combat is good, I grind my brain out.

So thats not at all what I'm disapppointed with. It was the linearity(i.e. limited choice) I felt in the early levels of Tree Of Savior in terms of where, how and with whom I grind, but as others pointed out in this thread and I personally am starting to realize myself, that gets better the higher you go.
i get your point :ok: i hope more variety from the beginning till the end too. I quit renewal RO after i maxed my char cuz I don't want to go the same route again.

If I have to go through the same process in low levels, i hope at least the dev team can make the process shorter :ok: :ok:
User avatar
Nagapon
Newcomer
Posts: 3
Joined: August 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: Linearity of progress is a huge letdown.

Post by Nagapon » August 7th, 2015, 12:18 am

nekomimi wrote:
KeksX wrote:I just want to point out, since I think some people might be confused:

I don't complain about the grind. I love the grind. I have countless max level characters in both the original Ragnarok as well as high level characters in Renewal(though I stopped due to the reason I pointed out earlier), I've played every "hardcore korean grind MMO" thats out there. If the combat is good, I grind my brain out.

So thats not at all what I'm disapppointed with. It was the linearity(i.e. limited choice) I felt in the early levels of Tree Of Savior in terms of where, how and with whom I grind, but as others pointed out in this thread and I personally am starting to realize myself, that gets better the higher you go.
i get your point :ok: i hope more variety from the beginning till the end too. I quit renewal RO after i maxed my char cuz I don't want to go the same route again.

If I have to go through the same process in low levels, i hope at least the dev team can make the process shorter :ok: :ok:
By reading this I just realized that RO had something amazing that is very, very uncommon for MMOs, which is the possibility to take different leveling routes (It was like that until Renewal). You had several options of places to grind depending on your class, your equipments and etc, and that adds a lot to the replayability of the game, of course, so leveling other chars doesn't feel as repetitive and boring as doing the exact same route everytime (Wakfu does this and it's horrible, all the sub chars I make lack several stuff because I don't have the patience to go through the same thing over and over everytime I want to test/level another class), as well as giving the player relevant freedom within the game.

Most important: It looks like Tree of Savior is gonna be one of those, so...
Post Reply