The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post Reply
User avatar
Zeph
Newcomer
Posts: 3
Joined: October 2015
Gender: None specified

The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by Zeph » October 31st, 2015, 9:09 pm

Hi guys, so I've been scouring all the forums I can to find out what the optimal stat build is for an archer. The common debate is that you should either go full STR, full DEX or a mix between the two stats. I've done some number crunching to help me decide on a build. Now bear with me it's been awhile since I've applied math at a decent level and I don't understand the mechanics of this game fully. If I've made any mistakes do make sure to let me know, please!

Do keep in mind that this data is only an approximation of realistic values!

First things first, we're going to talk about the relevant stats, skills and attributes. I've used a hypothetical lvl 120 character in my data. Lvl 119 means that 119 stat points have been spent, which amounts to 146 DEX or 146 STR with the added bonus stat points. Add the base stats for an archer and you get 155 DEX and 153 STR. Every class rank you get a 10% increase in STR and lvl 120 is around rank 5, meaning a full STR build has 1,4 * 146= 214,2STR. CritA has the same value as STR. Archers actually get a bonus for CritR; Instead of just the amount of DEX, they get a bonus of + level/5. In our case our lvl is 120 so a bonus of 24 CritR. Physical damage is level + STR.

This is what our stats look like at the moment for a level 120 archer class without gear:

---------------------------
Full STR

STR 214,2

DEX 9

PhysD 333,2

CritA 214,2

CritR 33

----------------------------
Full DEX

STR 9,8

DEX 155

PhysD 128,8

CritA 9,8

CritR 179

----------------------------
According to data gathered by dualwind every 2.33 CritR for an archer translates to 1% actual crit rate. So the Full STR build has about 14,2% actual crit rate and the Full DEX build has 76,8% crit rate.

The base damage formula is:

Actual damage = (atk+skill atk+ atk bonuses - def)
if crit multiply by 1.5 and add crit attack value from character sheet
then multiply by element/type mod (slash/stab/hit)
then add "additional damage" things like concentrate or from " bonus attack damage" stats.


For the sake of ease, we have no defensive buffs on and the assumed defense and crit res for mobs is zero. We also have no elemental/type advantage. If we do just basic attacks, so no skills the formula will look like this:

-------------------------
FullSTR
DMG = (333,2)

Crit = 1,5 * (333,2) + 214,2 = 714

Factor in the actual crit rate to get average damage per hit:

Avg DMG = 0,142 * 714 + 0,858 * 333,2 = 387,2736

~387,3 DMG per hit.

---------------------------

FullDEX
DMG = (128,8)

Crit = 1,5 * (128,8) + 9,8 = 203

Avg DMG = 0,768 * 203 + 0,232 * 128,8 = 185,7856

~185,8 DMG per hit.

---------------------------
A whopping 387,3 DMG per hit against 185,8 DMG per hit. To be honest, it's not too surprising considering this is just basic attacks without a weapon. If we actually add in the skill atk and the weapon atk in the damage formula the story changes entirely. Our new formula we're going to use is:

Full STR
Avg DMG = (chance for crit) * (1,5*(atk+skill atk)+crit atk)+(chance for no crit) * (atk+skill atk)

y= (0,142) * (1,5 * (333,2+x)+214,2)+(0,858) * (333,2+x)

where y is the avg damage dealt and x is the skill atk and weapon atk combined.

--------------------------
Full DEX
Avg DMG = (chance for crit)*(1,5*(atk+skill atk)+crit atk)+(chance for no crit)*(atk+skill atk)

y=(0,768) * (1,5 * (128,8+x)+9,8)+(0,232) * (128,8+x)

where y is the avg damage dealt and x is the skill atk and weapon atk combined.

--------------------------

These two equations can be plotted on a graph: http://puu.sh/l4Alz/998ac49c04.png

What we find out is that for a lvl 120 rank 5 archer class, Full STR will out-damage Full DEX up until about 700 damage. Keep in mind that level 120 bows do about 150-222 min damage and 222-334 max damage so you can easily get your damage in the 300 range if you refine your weapon. Skills for a lvl 120 do around 500-900 damage depending on what you use. This means that a full DEX build can easily out-damage a full STR build but you are severely limited by your cooldowns. You also have to factor in that your gear usually gives extra archer stats like DEX, crit rate and crit attack. You also have to take in account buffs which could be beneficial to either build. Circle 1 archer has a buff which can give you +25% of your total critical rate which can make you reach 100% crit easily combined with the DEX from your gear. Rogue has a skill which gives an insane amount of strength depending how much physical damage you have. I think Vendetta can give like 50-100 STR.

To bring this story to an end, Full STR massively outdamages DEX in the early game and full DEX probably massively outdamages STR in the late game, around level 120-ish and maybe even earlier. In CBT we have convenient status reset scrolls but I don't know how available they'll be in the actual game so leveling full DEX might be a royal pain in the ass.

TL;DR STR for early game, DEX for late game.

Some considerations:

1. In all equations the defense of the enemies haven't been taken out. All assumed defensive stats are zero. Accuracy and evasion hasn't been taken into account either. This suggests that the data is a bit in favor of full DEX, because of the crits.

2. Since I'm fairly unfamiliar with many of the popular builds, attributes or skills my data is a bit incomplete. Ideally I would want to run numbers on popular builds and skills to see what would be ideal. There are some skills which increase crit rate or STR, for example circle 1 Archer's swift step increased the total(not base) crit rate by 25%! You can actually get 100% crit rate with just that buff on.

3. With elemental/type advantage crits will do even more damage.

4. I am pretty sure with all the DEX you get from gears you won't even need to use all your points on DEX to get 100% crit chance. Maybe 90 DEX 30 STR is the way to go? Would have to do some more research.

5. This data is mainly relevant to archers and only serves as a helping hand for people to decide what stats to put. I mainly posted it because I want people to error check me. Please help with any mistakes I might have made!

Sources:

https://www.reddit.com/r/treeofsavior/c ... iscussion/

https://forum.treeofsavior.com/t/guide- ... 8-15/35417

http://wiki.tosbase.com/wiki/Stats

https://forum.treeofsavior.com/t/guide- ... mula/35416
User avatar
Vektor
Apprentice
Posts: 94
Joined: May 2015
Favorite Class: Plague Doctor
Gender: Male

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by Vektor » October 31st, 2015, 9:35 pm

I just created an Archer for this CBT and I'm very glad you put so much work into this. I was having doubts about the best places to put my points. Thanks again, this helped a lot!
User avatar
Arrex
Apprentice
Posts: 26
Joined: May 2015
Timezone: UTC+1
Location: Germany, North Rhine-Westphalia
Gender: None specified
Contact:

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by Arrex » October 31st, 2015, 11:16 pm

I am actually not really interested in playing Archer (still totally in love with the mage), but I have to commend the amount your effort in this calculation: Very clear, thought to the end, and presenting a clear point. This is how numbercrunching should be done, and not this goddamn datamining....
(I mean, sure datamining can be handy, but as a future gamedev, I'm simply not fond of the practice. Feels disrespectful. No offence intended!)
User avatar
Zeph
Newcomer
Posts: 3
Joined: October 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by Zeph » October 31st, 2015, 11:38 pm

Hi guys! I'm glad I was able to help you out! I actually calculated a 50% crit rate split if anyone is interested;

50% actual crit rate is around 116,5 CritR. Level 120 gives the 24 bonus so 116,5-24 = 92.5 DEX needed to get 50% crit rate. If we factor in the base stats and the bonus stats we get an amount of 77 DEX that you need to invest to get 92,5 DEX(actually 93). That means you have 42 points left to invest into STR. Add the base, the bonus stats and the 40% STR bonus and we end up with 81,2 STR. This is what our stats are looking like right now:
STR 81,2
DEX 92,5
PhysD 200,2
CritA 81,2
CritR 116,5
Alright, now we can input them into the equation.
DMG = 200,2 Crit DMG = 1,5 * 200,2 + 116,5
y=(0,5) * (1,5 * (200,2+x)+81,2)+ (0,5) * (200,2+x)
Here's the chart: http://puu.sh/l4Oe5/1c12e5b4cb.png[1]
So as you can see it starts out-damaging strength around 600 ATK but gets weaker than full DEX around 700 ATK. It's certainly a health medium in official if you want to level but don't want to bother with full DEX. Do note that again, these builds can be heavily optimized with the right skills and research but I don't have any knowledge about that.
User avatar
faeo_mavklas
Apprentice
Posts: 85
Joined: July 2014
Guild: TBA
Timezone: -8
Favorite Class: Hackapell
Server: Klaipeda
Gender: None specified

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by faeo_mavklas » November 1st, 2015, 1:05 am

Dex vs Str? Screw both of them. I put the majority of my points in SPR HAHAHA!!!
I'm using the 2-6-2. Twenty percent in both str and dex, sixty percent in spr for spamming skills. :heh:
User avatar
Zeph
Newcomer
Posts: 3
Joined: October 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by Zeph » November 1st, 2015, 1:15 am

Yeah I've read about it! Apparently for a majority of classes in the game, including wizards, STR and INT suck and you're better off getting SPR lategame because your damage is provided by your gear and skills. I'm currently leveling my archer so I can experiment with a DEX/SPR split. Crits and skills for days!
User avatar
faeo_mavklas
Apprentice
Posts: 85
Joined: July 2014
Guild: TBA
Timezone: -8
Favorite Class: Hackapell
Server: Klaipeda
Gender: None specified

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by faeo_mavklas » November 1st, 2015, 2:49 am

Zeph wrote:Yeah I've read about it! Apparently for a majority of classes in the game, including wizards, STR and INT suck and you're better off getting SPR lategame because your damage is provided by your gear and skills. I'm currently leveling my archer so I can experiment with a DEX/SPR split. Crits and skills for days!
Crazy stuff...if anyone haven't seen this yet. 10kx2=20k for the first weapon, 38kx2=76k for the second weapon. :omg:
Spider
Newcomer
Posts: 3
Joined: November 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by Spider » November 2nd, 2015, 3:33 am

Unfortunately, as far as I can tell... full SPR seems like the best possible build for an Archer, at least for grinding.
Your weapon seems to account for all the damage you'll need, and having a large SP pool lets you use Oblique Shot and wipe out endless groups of mobs.

This is speaking from personal experience though, as I swapped from a STR/DEX Archer to full SPR and am now experiencing the best possible improvement I could have hoped for.
Chooster
Newcomer
Posts: 3
Joined: October 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by Chooster » November 4th, 2015, 11:19 am

faeo_mavklas wrote:
Zeph wrote:Yeah I've read about it! Apparently for a majority of classes in the game, including wizards, STR and INT suck and you're better off getting SPR lategame because your damage is provided by your gear and skills. I'm currently leveling my archer so I can experiment with a DEX/SPR split. Crits and skills for days!
Crazy stuff...if anyone haven't seen this yet. 10kx2=20k for the first weapon, 38kx2=76k for the second weapon. :omg:
Someone linked me this build to mimic the build in that video: http://www.tosbase.com/tools/skill-simu ... 3vi74h967/
Do you think that his build is still viable?
User avatar
faeo_mavklas
Apprentice
Posts: 85
Joined: July 2014
Guild: TBA
Timezone: -8
Favorite Class: Hackapell
Server: Klaipeda
Gender: None specified

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by faeo_mavklas » November 4th, 2015, 7:43 pm

Chooster wrote:
faeo_mavklas wrote:
Zeph wrote:Yeah I've read about it! Apparently for a majority of classes in the game, including wizards, STR and INT suck and you're better off getting SPR lategame because your damage is provided by your gear and skills. I'm currently leveling my archer so I can experiment with a DEX/SPR split. Crits and skills for days!
Crazy stuff...if anyone haven't seen this yet. 10kx2=20k for the first weapon, 38kx2=76k for the second weapon. :omg:
Someone linked me this build to mimic the build in that video: http://www.tosbase.com/tools/skill-simu ... 3vi74h967/
Do you think that his build is still viable?
No. From the video it looked like he/she went Ranger C3 and the rest in Rogue C2. All the skills are actually there for you to see already. Naturally you would think that this build should go scout as well to get the increase damage from cloaking but the person didn't. That is simply because of sneak hit and back-stab is an automatic crit skill so. I don't know the exact build since I'm just copying off of the information from the video and I'm putting some of my personal inputs as well. Such as feint at level 9. That skill's...11 targets. That's potentially 11 whole mob that you can crit with barrage arrows if you have sneak hit. Crazy stuff.

http://www.tosbase.com/tools/skill-simu ... b0zi1x92k/
Chooster
Newcomer
Posts: 3
Joined: October 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by Chooster » November 4th, 2015, 8:12 pm

faeo_mavklas wrote:
Chooster wrote:
faeo_mavklas wrote: Crazy stuff...if anyone haven't seen this yet. 10kx2=20k for the first weapon, 38kx2=76k for the second weapon. :omg:
Someone linked me this build to mimic the build in that video: http://www.tosbase.com/tools/skill-simu ... 3vi74h967/
Do you think that his build is still viable?
No. From the video it looked like he/she went Ranger C3 and the rest in Rogue C2. All the skills are actually there for you to see already. Naturally you would think that this build should go scout as well to get the increase damage from cloaking but the person didn't. That is simply because of sneak hit and back-stab is an automatic crit skill so. I don't know the exact build since I'm just copying off of the information from the video and I'm putting some of my personal inputs as well. Such as feint at level 9. That skill's...11 targets. That's potentially 11 whole mob that you can crit with barrage arrows if you have sneak hit. Crazy stuff.

http://www.tosbase.com/tools/skill-simu ... b0zi1x92k/
So you think that build is viable? I wanted to try it but wasn't sure. Thanks for the build! I really appreciate it. Should I level going full strength or possibly try SPR for a while or maybe dex and switch to strength when I reach rogue?
User avatar
faeo_mavklas
Apprentice
Posts: 85
Joined: July 2014
Guild: TBA
Timezone: -8
Favorite Class: Hackapell
Server: Klaipeda
Gender: None specified

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by faeo_mavklas » November 4th, 2015, 9:14 pm

Chooster wrote:
faeo_mavklas wrote:
Chooster wrote: Someone linked me this build to mimic the build in that video: http://www.tosbase.com/tools/skill-simu ... 3vi74h967/
Do you think that his build is still viable?
No. From the video it looked like he/she went Ranger C3 and the rest in Rogue C2. All the skills are actually there for you to see already. Naturally you would think that this build should go scout as well to get the increase damage from cloaking but the person didn't. That is simply because of sneak hit and back-stab is an automatic crit skill so. I don't know the exact build since I'm just copying off of the information from the video and I'm putting some of my personal inputs as well. Such as feint at level 9. That skill's...11 targets. That's potentially 11 whole mob that you can crit with barrage arrows if you have sneak hit. Crazy stuff.

http://www.tosbase.com/tools/skill-simu ... b0zi1x92k/
So you think that build is viable? I wanted to try it but wasn't sure. Thanks for the build! I really appreciate it. Should I level going full strength or possibly try SPR for a while or maybe dex and switch to strength when I reach rogue?
Honestly dood or doodette(spelling it this way on purpose), do what you think you should do. I'm one of those kind who won't give you a proper answer because I want you to arrive at your own conclusion. Don't take the build 100% as it is-I don't know if it's viable. It's just guesswork on my part. Take what you find useful and apply it in your own way. Make your own rogue! Don't fall into a pattern. You can decrease or increase any skill to your liking-even taking out one whole circle to use for hunter, sapper, etc. Vendetta sounds nice you know? After a kill you get a HUGE increase in attack power(allies included)..this is what I mean. Mess around with the skills and see what fits your playing style.

Does SPR at early levels sound good? Well, you'll be leveling with oblique shot for mobs and using multi-arrow to burst the bosses. So having more SPR helps. You'll get more sp pool to spam those skills and as a ranger with barrage. Does that sound good? but at the same time if you go all SPR you won't have the firepower to deal decent damage at that level. As sad as it is, us Archer are really getting the short-end of the stick in all aspects so you might take longer when fighting bosses if you're soloing. If you go STR you won't have the sp and you'll be relying on pots a lot more often. What is it? 180 silver for the lesser blues for a pop? But like I said earlier, a rogue does not need dex since their buffs and skills will give you them. The guy in the video went 90% STR.

Do what you should do and have fun. :ok:
TheProdigy
Newcomer
Posts: 1
Joined: November 2015
Gender: None specified

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by TheProdigy » November 6th, 2015, 12:29 am

Damn! This post was very Interesting and Helpful! Thanks for the post Zeth!
I Have a question! How much Critical Rate i need on Swordman to reach 50% Critical rate? :no1:
User avatar
Enryd
Apprentice
Posts: 44
Joined: July 2015
Timezone: UTC+8
Favorite Class: Falconer
Server: [SEA] Telsiai
Team Name: Enryd
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by Enryd » November 6th, 2015, 1:44 pm

Hello to you all,

I just need a confirmation to this for me to build my archer.

Does the skill "Detonate Traps" of Sapper detonates healing circles, offensive spell cirles(like the pyromancers' flame ground)? What are the other skills that are considered as magic circles? And, if I'm going for Sapper, is the skill detonate trap advisable?
User avatar
Phelsetti
Apprentice
Posts: 137
Joined: June 2014
Favorite Class: Cannoneer
Gender: Male

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by Phelsetti » November 6th, 2015, 2:59 pm

Sursix wrote:Hello to you all,

I just need a confirmation to this for me to build my archer.

Does the skill "Detonate Traps" of Sapper detonates healing circles, offensive spell cirles(like the pyromancers' flame ground)? What are the other skills that are considered as magic circles? And, if I'm going for Sapper, is the skill detonate trap advisable?
Just about any skill in their description that mentions magic circle, Detonate Traps can explode.

So far I've been able to detonate heal, cure, deprotected zone, safety zone, monstrance, zalciai, zaibas, melstis, and zombify from Cleric classes.
Flame ground from Pyros.

Only times I've used Detonate Traps on them is when they have the intent of trying to attack my group of mobs. :gawi:

Can also smack away Pyro's fireball with stockade. A lot of times broom trap could kill off mobs before Swordsman classes would come in and kill them off. Sapper's can play off as an anti-kill steal or a massive troll depend how you want to play them as. And I highly recommend taking Detonate Trap for the sake of removing boss traps and taking away magic circles from people that have intent to kill steal and such. Just be careful to not detonate your own traps. :heh:

If you do plan to dedicate on Sapper. Claymore isn't exactly worth it. Stockade, Broom Trap and even Detonate Traps if set up right can easily out damage Claymore. And a big blow on your money too. Also Collar Bomb is pretty bugged, sometimes nothing happens and also doesn't do any damage to bosses.
User avatar
Enryd
Apprentice
Posts: 44
Joined: July 2015
Timezone: UTC+8
Favorite Class: Falconer
Server: [SEA] Telsiai
Team Name: Enryd
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by Enryd » November 8th, 2015, 1:37 pm

Phelsetti wrote:
Sursix wrote:Hello to you all,

I just need a confirmation to this for me to build my archer.

Does the skill "Detonate Traps" of Sapper detonates healing circles, offensive spell cirles(like the pyromancers' flame ground)? What are the other skills that are considered as magic circles? And, if I'm going for Sapper, is the skill detonate trap advisable?
Just about any skill in their description that mentions magic circle, Detonate Traps can explode.

So far I've been able to detonate heal, cure, deprotected zone, safety zone, monstrance, zalciai, zaibas, melstis, and zombify from Cleric classes.
Flame ground from Pyros.

Only times I've used Detonate Traps on them is when they have the intent of trying to attack my group of mobs. :gawi:

Can also smack away Pyro's fireball with stockade. A lot of times broom trap could kill off mobs before Swordsman classes would come in and kill them off. Sapper's can play off as an anti-kill steal or a massive troll depend how you want to play them as. And I highly recommend taking Detonate Trap for the sake of removing boss traps and taking away magic circles from people that have intent to kill steal and such. Just be careful to not detonate your own traps. :heh:

If you do plan to dedicate on Sapper. Claymore isn't exactly worth it. Stockade, Broom Trap and even Detonate Traps if set up right can easily out damage Claymore. And a big blow on your money too. Also Collar Bomb is pretty bugged, sometimes nothing happens and also doesn't do any damage to bosses.
Thanks a lot for all of that,

Btw, Detonate Traps has its number of explosions. Is that the number of times a single trap will explode or the number of traps that will explode?
User avatar
Phelsetti
Apprentice
Posts: 137
Joined: June 2014
Favorite Class: Cannoneer
Gender: Male

Re: The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by Phelsetti » November 8th, 2015, 2:44 pm

Sursix wrote:Thanks a lot for all of that,

Btw, Detonate Traps has its number of explosions. Is that the number of times a single trap will explode or the number of traps that will explode?
The number of total traps you can detonate, it will only detonate the closest ones. And just figured out this skill also detonates Flame Pillar, Fire Wall, Ice Wall, Frost Pillar, Flare Shot, Throw Gu Pot, Jincan Gu and Magic Arrow. Ice Wall won't be destroyed but will still inflict detonate traps damage and only 1 damage to itself. I've yet to test on Druid, Oracle, Necromancer, and Elementalist. Just didn't wanna be that asshole to Elementalist.
Moved from General to Archer Classes on November 11th, 2015, 4:27 am by Flash

Vpinkzevy
Newcomer
Posts: 1
Joined: March 2016
Gender: None specified

The archer DEX vs STR debate

Post by Vpinkzevy » March 8th, 2016, 12:12 am

Yes but since the table I use is a small folding one or I am in bed on a lapdesk, not enough room. Anyway, the keybindings seem to be working though I have not played a lot with the archer yet.
Post Reply