Pardoners are now truly a merchant class!Lol

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Vahn
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Pardoners are now truly a merchant class!Lol

Post by Vahn » September 5th, 2015, 3:00 am

THE INNER GAME MECHANIC BEHIND THE SIMONY SKILL

Previously I stated how the cost of lv15 scrolls would be too high, since a high Lv 'skill' would be required. It still will be, but not in the way I imagined it to be. Well IMC has screwed us over. They created a formula that punishes the player who invested 15 levels into a skill and only promote players who invest a single point into a skill that they are trying to make into a Lv15 scroll.
Example :
Heal Lv15 + Simony Lv1 = Heal Lv 1 scroll (Parchment 15 + 7500 silver)
Heal Lv5 + Simony Lv15 = Heal Lv15 scroll (Parchment 5 + 2500 silver)

With Divine Might (Scroll Lv15 won't help add up to some point, I'll exclude it to make it less confuse)
Heal Lv15 + Simony Lv1 + Divine Might Lv5 = Heal Lv 5 scroll
Heal Lv5 + Simony Lv5 + Divine Might Lv10 = Heal Lv15 scroll
Heal Lv1 + Simony Lv10 + Divine Might Lv10 = Heal Lv20 scroll
In order to make it you need a parchment (cost 200 silver each) and 500 silver per parchment used. Also, note it was stated in the above link that the requirement for crafting, meaning the 500 silver is a bug. Should it be lower or higher? I'm not sure. From the above example you can see that there are two ways of creating the scroll. You can make it either by 'Skill + Simony' or 'Skill + Divine Might + Simony'.
lv1 heal skill + simony lv5 + divine lv10 = heal scroll lv15
scroll level will be base by simony lv not heal scroll
heal skill level will be effect to require item to make scroll (have to be real skill level not relate to divine)
The above was stated by Tsuyucchi who's doing the extended kCBT and the author of the above link.
So when making a scroll, the Skill only requires a single level, just to add effect to the final scroll. Basically the skill is just to determine what the scroll will turn out to be. The only thing that has any say on the level of the scroll is Simony. Watch how this pardoner who invested 15 levels into heal, can only achieve a Heal Lv1 scroll at 3 times the cost of another pardoner who invest just 5 levels into heal but gained a lv15 scroll.

1.Heal Lv15 + Simony Lv1 = Heal Lv 1 scroll (Parchment 15 + 7500 silver)
2.Heal Lv5 + Simony Lv15 = Heal Lv15 scroll (Parchment 5 + 2500 silver)


What is this I hear? It's the first pardoner's fault? He should've invested his points into Simony? Alright, now let's see what happens after this poor guy maxes out his Simony.

1.Heal Lv15 + Simony Lv15 = Heal Lv 15 scroll (Parchment 15 + 7500 silver)

Can you see that he still has to pay 3 times the cost compared to the second pardoner to make it? This is because the number of parchments and the required cost is that many times the skill level. The first one uses 15 parchments since his skill lv is 15. The second uses 5 since his skill lv is 5. What's the cost if the the second invested only a single level?

2.Heal Lv1 + Simony Lv15 = Heal Lv15 scroll (Parchment 1 + 500 silver)

Yes, you saw that right. 15 times the cost. So a lesser pardoner will be selling at 1k while the more talented one will be forced to sell at 8k. So the second pardoner makes a 50% profit margin, while the first pardoner makes a 6.25%, no wait...who would even buy that? He makes nothing. His dreams crashed and his reason for being a pardoner hold no more. It's better if he switches his profession now. Since the only single circle class was the rank 4 he had. Since, he choose pardoner now he'll have to continue but he's at a serious disadvantage now. What about the people who want Barrier? That's a circle 3 Paladin. They won't even be able to progress in the game if they only spend a single point on smite,restoration,resist elements and turn undead. Even if they pull it off, that's 40 points wasted by the third circle. So if you want to sell barrier then loose out on smite,restoration,resist elements and turn undead.

So, I think the message is if you want to be a pardoner: "Make sacrifices! You won't get everything that you want! Foolish pardoners!". Guess we know now what the Merchant build looks like! A single point on every skill and a single circle on all classes. Also we'll be able to identify them in game quite easily too. They'll be the people who always need bodyguards 24/7 or else they'll die, since they have only lv1 skills. Wait, it's pretty realistic isn't it? Geniuses! I finally understand what they wanted to do! I guess I know the title of this topic.

Using divine might: Also, when you have low levels of Simony you can still make high level scrolls using Divine might. The final scroll is:'Lv of Divine Might + Lv of Simony'. Though remember you won't be able to make a high level Divine Might scroll if you go that way, because you spent more than a single point on it! Remember all you pardoners, if you want to make a lot of money, join a merchant association, hire body guards to help you level. You'll be using your talents towards mid-end game to return the favor to your bodyguards. It's an investment in money! You know what? I was pretty pissed off, but I think I like this the best. It balances the game quite a bit, by making sure the Pardoners are not our 'All powerful overlords'. They'll get rich very fast, but now there is a sacrifice, as mentioned above! IMC very well done indeed!!! :no1:

EDIT:
I want to hear all of your opinions on this issue. But, here are somethings that might come up later, so I'll address them now:
1. Also note that IMC said that the requirement cost 500 silver was a bug. Did they think it was too high or too low? I don't know.
2. Don't make any comparisons between Pardoner's and other crafting classes such as Alchemist/Squires etc.This topic only deals with the problems within the Pardoner class.
3. Edit to my Post on 'Simony Skills', Divine Might and Call of Deities are no longer be made into scroll skills. (Thanks IOUmoney)
4. Divine might can now be used with Scrolls for skills sold in the Spell Shop.
Last edited by Vahn on September 6th, 2015, 9:25 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Pardoners are now truly a merchant class!Lol

Post by IOUmoney » September 5th, 2015, 2:30 pm

In my opinion, the current system needs a little bit more work because rewards people that invest the least and punishes those that specialize. It hurts pardoners that are going the full c3 because people can just sidetrack pardoner for one rank to reap better benefits then the actual people that specialize in it. Other crafting classes don't have this sort of problem. The other crafting classes aren't affected by Divine might to such a degree and have no competition from those that simply are moonlighting that job for one rank. They are actually rewarded for sticking the full course. It makes no logical sense that someone with a lower level of skill can make a scroll of a way higher skill level cheaper/more efficient that then someone on that actual level :hmm:

It needs to get tweaked: 1) simony doesn't get effected by divine might 2) Final scroll level is also affected by base skill level or shift the cost onto the simony level.

I have no idea where your getting pardoners are all powerful overlords from. Pardoners lack the wide array of skills compared to the crafting classes because they aren't full on crafting. Two (D.E. and indul) of the 5 skills are more related to supporting then crafting. One (Oblation) skill is still unclear on the real benefit besides the passive. Of the two crafting skills (simony and spell shop), you will only need one and never the other. Not all squires will be the same and not all alchemist will be the same (less frequency of identical builds). However, pardoners will fall into like 2 groups (simony pardoner or spell shop pardoner). Meaning a whole bunch of alchemist/squire can make a great living because they can specialize into several skills and not conflict with each other much. That is not the same case, Pardoners have it much tougher competition wise because they have to deal with other pardoners that have the same skill set (much higher compared to the other crafting classes) and with other clerics-base that can simply moonlight the pardoner class for one rank (have full benefits as going a full pardoner). Additionally, the top sellers (despite selling below the production cost) like DM and CoD are no longer scroll-able. They are far from the all powerful rich overlords that you thinking of. They have to struggle just as much as the other crafting classes if not more.
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Re: Pardoners are now truly a merchant class!Lol

Post by Arec » September 5th, 2015, 7:01 pm

I hope you brought this up on the Official Forum too. It sounds like a perspective that could be shared with the publishers. :panic:
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Re: Pardoners are now truly a merchant class!Lol

Post by Vahn » September 5th, 2015, 9:46 pm

@Arec: Thanks! I posted it on the official forum to see what people think. As soon as someone accepts my pending post!
Last edited by Vahn on September 6th, 2015, 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pardoners are now truly a merchant class!Lol

Post by IOUmoney » September 6th, 2015, 3:24 am

:P pretty sure saw it on your other post (about 1-2 days from this edit) about pardoner and this post before it was edited. (but that's not what is important anyway) The general point was every crafting class has it struggles. The main issue with regard to pardoner is that it lacks a variety of crafting skill.It's usually either one route or the other. If you go scroll pardoner, you usually don't have the priest is needed for the spell shop pardoner. That leads a whole bunch of issue with competition within scroll pardoners. Additionally, they would have further competition from people that can just moonlight pardoner and get the full benefit of a scroll pardoner. Spell shop pardoner has less competition on that end because it requires at least rank 2 pardoner and c3 priest (spell shop is based off the skill's actual level). Other crafting classes don't have that issue because there is variety of crafting skills to invest and moonlighters can't do the job as efficient as genuine deal. Additionally, Pardoners undermine their own partying potential slightly (not true with other classes).
Vahn wrote:WILL THESE SCROLLS BE CHEAP TO BUY? LET'S TAKE A LOOK!:
TIER 3 SCROLLS:
All other skills such as: Safety Zone, Daino, Zaibas, Smite, Turn Undead, Arcane Energy, Counter Spell, Change, Clairvoyance, Forecast having no direct competition will be the most expensive.
Of the skills you mentioned:
Safety zone, Daino, Zaibas, Smite, and turn undead can easily be produced by clerics that moonlight pardoner at much cheaper cost. So, i don't think no direct competition isn't worded correctly. They have to fight with other pardoners and moonlighters.
The craft-able oracles skills are safe for now because mainly of time required, so less people filtering in. Eventually, it the scrolls prove to be profitable then it will eventually get flooded.
Arcane Energy, Counter, Forecast and change is sorta safe just because it requires much more of a time commitment.

However, i do agree with you that certain scrolls will sell better then others. As far as expense goes, your not going to see people high level skills scroll like popping potions outside events like bosses and such. What you might see is people spamming like lvl 1-5 safety walls because it saves you from like 2-4 (or around a cost of potion in some cases) for channeling or casting spells.

Ironically, the ones that need high level scrolls are the classes that have the actual skills (a selling point). Due to the nature of the way how boss drops work, classes like paladin will likely spam smite scrolls along with their smite to boost that extra bit of damage (given the reward is more then scrolls spent). If you (non-pally) do like equal damage on a boss with a pally and start spamming the smite scrolls at the same time, your still going to lose because the paladins scroll are actually back up by passives.

Post script:
The one point that we sorta both overlooked is that those examples are used to show constricting factors in the simony skills. What is correct is the pricing based off those examples (500 per base skill level). As a result, the conjecture that C2-3 Pardoners can't compete in cost efficiency is wrong. The reason being that the C1-C3 can lower the base skill level (i mean how else are they going to produce low level skill if they change the skill level) and use simony to scale up the scroll. In other words, the only crucial factor in the skill production is the Simony level (can easily cheat with DM).
Last edited by IOUmoney on September 7th, 2015, 7:55 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Pardoners are now truly a merchant class!Lol

Post by Vahn » September 6th, 2015, 10:54 am

I moved what I said here to the bottom of the first post. Wish there was a delete post feature that I could use! :wah:
Last edited by Vahn on September 6th, 2015, 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pardoners are now truly a merchant class!Lol

Post by IOUmoney » September 6th, 2015, 4:04 pm

Vahn wrote:In order not to loose focus on the topic, I'm won't be turning this topic into a debate between people. However, I'll say somethings to make my post clearer.
1. Don't compare my previous post on 'Simony Skills' topic to this one. No one should. The previous post on that other forum didn't take this Simony scroll mechanic into account. Back then I didn't know how Simony scroll level worked. So I just used the prices listed in the examples that I got. Also note that IMC said that the requirement cost 500 silver was a bug. Did they think it was too high or too low? I


Based off that statement, a huge section shouldn't be taken into consideration from your original post except for the last two paragraph (as their basis is dependent around the 500 silver).

Also, I even stated that each class has its own problem in the 2nd post that i made (Now Bolded). Afterwards, it goes into problems that pardoners have to deal with on lack of crafting skill build diversity and hard competition not only other pardorner but also from other cleric base classes that moonlight pardoner for 1 rank (still compete with C2-C3 pardoners).
Last edited by IOUmoney on September 7th, 2015, 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pardoners are now truly a merchant class!Lol

Post by Vahn » September 6th, 2015, 9:36 pm

I updated by original post on "Pardoner Skill Simony", now you can take the both of them as a combination.
Original Post: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1311
@IOUmoney:Let's take this discussion to PMs for now.
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